“Rewarding an aggressor has never brought peace, it only makes bullying more profitable than compliance. Those who profess to be neutral in this situation are simply on the side of those who use force to get what they are not entitled to’.

Oleksandra Matviichuk, founder and leader of the Centre for Civil Liberties, a Ukrainian organisation awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022, does not mince her words. Petite build, calm but determined voice and the proud look of someone who leaves no room for interpretation, over an American coffee in a small café in the centre of Kyiv, she agrees to talk about the war, Europe and the future of her country.

Regarding the Nobel Prize awarded to the Centre for Civil Liberties in 2022, how important is it that the highest award for peace be awarded to an organisation from a country at war?

It is an almost paradoxical situation, precisely because we received the Nobel Peace Prize during a war, a very bloody war to boot, in which Russia uses war crimes as an ordinary way of conducting the conflict, while millions of Ukrainians suffer. I believe the aim is to finally give a voice to those who defend human rights, because for decades we have not been heard. For a long time we have been told that peace and human rights are inextricably linked, and that states that grossly violate human rights, such as Russia, pose a threat not only to their own citizens, but to peace and security in general. Now this Nobel Peace Prize has made this clear.

Some, even in Italy, claim that it is Ukraine that does not want peace, refusing to give up occupied territories and disarm. What do you think of these claims? Can there be peace without justice?

It is very naive to think that if you reward the aggressor with a new territorial conquest, it will stop. It does not work with Russia. There, too, the proverb is used: ‘appetite comes with eating’. In 2014, when Russia occupied Crimea and part of Ukraine’s eastern regions, Ukraine signed the so-called Minsk agreements. And how has Russia used these eight years of ‘peace agreement’? It turned Crimea into a giant military base and increased its presence in the eastern regions to prepare its attack plans. Russia also produced artillery shells, prepared the economy for the next wave of sanctions, trained the army and finally started a full-scale war. For this is the nature of any empire. The empire has a centre but no borders. And these are exactly the words used by Vladimir Putin. According to him, the borders of the Russian state are infinite.

A war between systems, not just between states

If you had to describe what kind of war Russia is fighting against Ukraine, what words would you use?

I would say that this is not just a war between two states, it is a war between two systems: authoritarianism and democracy. Because with this war, Putin is trying to convince the whole world that a country with a strong military potential and a nuclear arsenal can break the world order, dictate its rules to the entire international community and even change internationally recognised borders by force. If Putin succeeds, he will encourage other authoritarian leaders in different parts of the world to do the same. And that is why Ukrainians are not just fighting for themselves, they are fighting for the world order that is based on the UN Charter and international law.

In 2022, the Nobel Prize was awarded to three organisations, one Ukrainian, one Russian and one Belarusian. The Civil Liberties Centre is the only one of these that is free to operate in its own country and whose leaders have not been imprisoned. Where is Ukraine on the road to democracy?

When we received the Nobel Peace Prize, the head of Viasna, Ales Bialiatsky, was imprisoned, and only a few months later the head of the Russian Centre for Human Rights Memorial, Oleg Orlov, was also sent to prison. So I was the only representative of all three organisations to be free. Then, fortunately, my Russian colleague, Oleg Orlov was included in a prisoner exchange and released. But this puts an additional responsibility on us. We are doing our best to stop the deaths, to stop the deaths on the battlefields, in the rear and in the occupied territories.

Many, especially abroad, were surprised to see thousands of Ukrainians take to the streets against the anti-corruption laws, because no one expected that in a country at war, an issue like the fight against corruption would be perceived as a priority. What are Ukrainians fighting for?

I would like to explain that this protest was not a sign of weakness. This protest was a sign of strength. Ukraine proved once again that the survival, the life force and the source of our resilience is democracy, freedom of speech, the belief of ordinary people that they can do extraordinary things, that they have decision-making power and can influence state policy. And look what happened. When the Ukrainian parliament passed the law threatening the independence of the anti-corruption bodies, the ordinary people in the large-scale war were heard. They said: ‘This is not good, we are worried about our European future. So go back to work and change everything’. And the Ukrainian parliament did. Once again we have shown that we are not perfect, but we are still a democracy. We are, if you like, a nation in transit. We have a lot of homework to do to complete the democratic reforms. But we are on the right track. And what is sometimes underestimated is that we are carrying out these reforms not in a time of peace, but in a time of large-scale war.

Defending democracy, looking towards Europe

Even during the Nobel ceremony, he clearly stated that the attacked country cannot lay down its arms. Why do you think it is so difficult to make people understand that self-defence is a right, while the desire to oppress is not?

Because some people merely imitate pacifism. Who is a true pacifist for me? They are the brave and honest people in Russia who organised anti-war protests and were imprisoned. Those are true pacifists. Because they tried to stop their country, armed aggression. And they paid a high price for that attempt alone. They also know they cannot stop Putin, but they have the human dignity to speak openly about it. To say that it is a crime, that it is immoral. People who imitate pacifism do not know how to stop Putin, but they want their country to stop supporting Ukraine. What do they have to propose, given the difference in potential between Ukraine and Russia? Russia has veto power at the UN, nuclear weapons, oil and gas, which means a lot of money, 140 million inhabitants. Russia, at the beginning of a large-scale war, was the 11th economic power in the world. So, the potential is very different. If in such a situation you do not help Ukraine to resist Russian aggression, and you say you are pacifist, i.e. neutral, you are only helping Russia to occupy Ukraine. This does not lead to peace, it leads to Russian occupation. And occupation is still war, just in a different form. Because occupation does not diminish human suffering, it only makes it invisible. And Russian occupation is horrible. Because it means enforced disappearances, torture, rape, denial of identity, forced adoption of one’s children, filtration camps and mass graves. And these people are probably not thinking about the millions of Ukrainians, who are now alone with the occupiers in these territories. We cannot leave them alone to suffer torture and death. It is immoral.

Does being neutral therefore mean being on the side of the aggressor?

One only has to recall the words of Desmond Tutu, the famous South African Nobel laureate, who was one of the main protagonists of the reconciliation committees: ‘If you are neutral in a situation of injustice, it only means that you side with the oppressor’.

After Trump’s election to the White House, it does not look like a good time for democracy around the world. How can we defend ourselves against those who believe that the world should be governed by the law of the strongest?

We must promote our reasons. And we must reinforce these words with our actions. As Ukrainians, we are paying a very high price just to have the chance to build a country where everyone’s rights are protected, the government is accountable, the judiciary is independent, and the police do not beat up peacefully demonstrating students. We are paying a very high price to stop evil. Because for us, ‘never again’ is not just a figure of speech. We do not simply say ‘never again concentration camps’, ‘never again erasure of identity’, ‘never again physical destruction of entire nations’. We have taken these words to the battlefields.

During his recent visit to Rome, he said at a meeting: ‘Take care of your democracy’. How can we do this?

We have to carry out two tasks in parallel. What do I mean? I know that many people in well-developed democracies are angry. Because their democracies are not ideal and do not solve many problems, such as social inequality. However, these people have inherited democracy from their parents. They never fought for democracy. They have taken human rights for granted, because they have no idea how to live under an authoritarian government. They have the luxury of considering freedom as if it were a choice between different cheeses at the supermarket. They have become mere consumers of freedom. So these are the two tasks, which we must carry out in parallel. We must perfect our democracy and we must protect it. Because even our democracy is not perfect, but it is undoubtedly better than an authoritarian regime. On the other hand, what is the alternative to our imperfect democracy?

Let’s talk about Europe. Ukraine wants to join the EU. Ukraine has had two revolutions and has been at war for 11 years. Some might say that you believe in Europe more than the Europeans.

First of all, I want to make it clear that Ukraine is Europe. Because Europe is not just a geographical concept. Europe is a choice of values. And when you ask ordinary people in Ukraine why they want to join the European Union, these people have no idea how the European Parliament works. They will answer you in the language of values and that is that we want to return to the European civil dimension. We were probably not born European, because I, for example, was born in the Soviet Union, but we became European through our struggle. So, Ukraine is Europe. It is part of Europe. And it’s not the worst part, I must say. Because I know of no other nation that has given its blood for the values of the European flag. Only Ukrainians have done that.

Europe supports Ukraine, but support still seems weak. Because perhaps governments fear that public opinion in their own countries does not understand the danger of Kiev’s defeat. If you could speak to that part of western public opinion, what would you say?

That they are only safe because the Ukrainians are still resisting Russian aggression and not allowing the Russian army to advance further and attack the next European country. Russia is an empire, and the empire is always trying to expand. I also see this in my human rights work. When I interviewed people who survived Russian captivity, they told me that the Russians see their future this way. First we will occupy Ukraine and then, together with you, we will go and conquer other countries. So, it is not just a Ukrainian problem. It is a problem of all European countries. Because they will be the next to be attacked by Putin’s Russia. It is crucial that these countries take decisive action, not only for the Ukrainian people, but also for their own citizens.

The final question is: when will the war end and how will it end?

I honestly don’t know. People in Ukraine dream of peace. Because war is the most horrible thing that can happen in human life. Nobody in Ukraine chose war. It is Russia that invaded our country, started killing people, stole our children, destroyed our identity. So, we want to stop this horror. And to stop it, we have to understand Putin’s goal. He started this war not just to occupy another piece of Ukrainian land. He started this war to occupy and destroy the whole country and to advance further. He only sees Ukraine as a breach for other European countries. He dreams of leaving a legacy of his own. His logic is historical. He wants to restore the Russian empire by force. And the problem is that even after three years of large-scale war and 11 years of war in general, he does not give up his goal. He has no reason to, because human life is the cheapest resource the Russian state has. To stop this war, we have no choice but to make Putin realise that it is impossible for him to achieve his goals. This means that we must develop security guarantees to protect Ukraine and Europe.